Holy smokes! Ray, thank you for all your helpful advice and recommended links! I repped ya. OK, I'm gonna keep reading up. Here's one more question: The wife and I will probably be moving in about six or so months. I imagine that'd be a real stressor on both fish and plants -- not to mention husband and wife. :-) Would you recommend waiting until after the move to get started, or would you soldier on?

And for Brad: If you don't mind my asking, why did you get completely out of the hobby?

Thanks, fellas. :-)
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That large fish in the top center is a fish from Malawi. It's a large Fosorochromis rostratus. Kinda wish I had a small group of them, but they would probably go on a killing spree then. That one alone is a bruiser.
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Dave, if you know you'll be moving soon, I would hold off on setting up a new tank. They can be a hassle to move. That will give you plenty of time to read up on what you want and get all your equipment bought.
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I also think it is worth waiting for before a move....fish survive fine in buckets, especially with live plants in
the buckets. The motion of the moving van oxygenates the water. Buy why even do it? Fish tank crap is a
hassle, and moving is already a hassle enough. Even if you have the tank NOW, moving it dry with no stanky rocks
in it is the best idea.

As for the hobby exit on my part, I don't leave my home for long periods of time during the year, but when I DO,
I like to be gone a long time, 4+ days minimum. And fish tanks are kind of demanding in that regard. As I am an
a55hole, I do not have any friends to watch it. Nor is my house a place I would want people in, kind of a storage
unit with paths cut through the clutter, if you need a picture. I have been a bachelor hermit so long, its kind of
embarrassing. But there is also the issue of electricity, and the mess, and the work, and the fact that my MIND is set
on leaving here, and I do not want boat anchors around my legs. It has been set for 5 years, and I am still here, so
I am not very EFFECTIVE at getting out, but when I do get off my a55 and move, I want to be untethered.
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Been eyeing this thread for a while. In my 44 years, I’ve been actively keeping and enjoying the freshwater aquaria hobby for more than half of it. If there’s one thing I feel I know in-depth, it’s freshwater tanks. Having a chemistry degree and working in laboratories the past 20+ years has made my aquarium hobby much more interesting. When the Internet came to be, aquariums and paludariums were my first interests. I was a part of so many user groups. I was big into planted tanks, from the basic, natural planted tank to the high tech CO2, high wattage lights, and PMDD versions. I’ve had nearly every type of plant for sell or trade and have tried my best to grow and propagate each one of them, some successful, some not-so-much. I went to many “aquarium herfs” you could call it, where we exchanged ideas, plants, and fish. I also had some success in placing in on-line tank contests and won some cool stuff. I’ve collected rocks and wood from every corner of the state trying to build a big collection to use and trade. I had it bad for 10+ years and had many close friends that were big into it. I also wrote a substrate article for Planted Aquarium Magazine and it’s now found it way to many websites that I’m sure folks still use. I went through several cycles – Tanganyikan cichlids (Julies, ocellatus, etc.), Amazonia cichlids (apistos, acaras, etc.), West African cichlids (pelvic, Congo tetras, etc.), low-tech planted, high-tech planted, paludariums, hard water species, soft water species, and specialty fishes. When I look back, it’s kind of mind-boggling. Fast forward to about 5 years ago – I’ve gotten older, I’ve experience about all you WANT to experience in this hobby, and I’ve wanted to slow down to just have tanks that are low maintenance and look good in our home. During this period I’ve honestly had several instances of thinking about getting rid of them all, even discussing it in-depth with my wife. However, I always come back to my senses. For the past 10 year I’ve kept 2 – 55 G, 1 – 20G, and 1 – 10G – all planted. They all reside in our living room and dining area and are truly a part of our home. When you take 4 steps in our front door, you can see them all. They are all low light, low maintenance (about 2 hours every other month), low cost “furniture” tanks. I keep fish and invertebrates that help the tanks stay clean. I add Ca, Mg, and K to levels around 4-6 dH and baking soda to levels around 2-3 dK. I don’t worry about pH, nitrates, phosphates or any of that other stuff anymore, I know from experience and lots of days of testing what to look for and what not to worry about. All have Fluorite/Small pea gravel substrates and all run off 12-hour cycle timers. I share baby fish and plants with folks I work with and also give them to local fish stores. I toss out tons of plants yearly, as they require pruning with maintenance. I took pictures with my iPhone last night, but they look a lot better than they are pictured. I also put some older pictures of the old days that I had uploaded to Photobucket years ago. There’s a lot of tanks that have been awesome that I never took any pictures of. No digital cameras back then and film cameras looked horrible. I know I’ve written a lot here, but I could gone on for days. If anyone ever has any questions, shoot me a PM and I’ll try to help.

Substrate article (circa 1999): http://www.cichlid-forum.com/article...substrates.php

10 G:
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20G:
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Both 55 G:
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Older tanks from 10-15 years ago:

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Nice tanks Jamie. It's been a while since I've done a nice planted tank. Those look great. I've had the idea to turn my 1000g into a huge planted community with giant schools of tetras, discus, angels, and apistos, but some of my big guys in there have been with me for a while. Don't know how much longer I'll be keeping peacock bass though as their food bill just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
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Jamie, holy smokes! Just... Wow!
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Looks like I'm getting ready to redo my big tank. My peacock bass are going through about 30-60 bucks a month in food and they are not even big yet. I really like those fish, but I gotta ditch that food bill. I'll be building a roughly 4-500 gallon tank to house some of my other big fish and turning the 1000g into a community tank. Plan so far is wild type angels, huge schools of tetras, some barbs, cory cats, and some other small cichlid species and plecos. I'll be getting back into plants as well for this tank with some larger, easy to care for plants. I know this thread doesn't get much attention on a cigar forum, but hopefully I'll have some photo updates as I progress.
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400 G tank = divorce

1000 G tank = pine box

You're a lucky man (or either brave), Ray. Best of luck!
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Nice thread. I used to work at a pet store in Atlanta (post biology degree, pre med school days) and got to go to Fins Aquatics down by the airport where they would import the fish in. I could get the Laotian dudes who dipped fish to hook me up with oddball stuff that came in with the bigger orders. At the time it was Australian Raindbows, oddball synodontis sp catfish, and a few cichlids. At the time I had 3 55's in my 800sq ft apt. Last year I took my last one down (20 years after setting it up). The plants were mostly varieties of amazon sword and had survived moves from Atlanta, then 3 cities in WV. I miss my tanks but I have a nice Koi breeding pond behind my barn. It will do for now. Miss those days when I'd run down to Fins though.
Dr.Phil
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Lucky and brave!:-) She already knows it won't end there either. Next house will have at least a 2500g tank. I want to revisit peacock bass and some other seriously large fish sometime down the road. Don't go lurking around Monsterfishkeepers.com, because it will ruin you on aquariums.
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Brothers, it's funny. At risk of sounding like a hippy, 'what a long strange trip it's been.' And I haven't even actually started yet!

This is a bit long-winded. Sorry.

So, I initially assumed I'd go with a freshwater set up because I read they require less maintenance and are cheaper to stock and run, generally, than saltwater. But then, while exploring further, I got exposed to the marine side of the hobby. I was mesmerized by the impossible colors, knocked-out by the outter-space strangeness of marine creatures. Nevertheless, I'd heard somewhere along the line that saltwater is for experts only. That one advances to saltwater only after first mastering freshwater aquaria.

Later, here and there, I read a conflicting POV: that keeping a FOWLR tank is really no more difficult than keeping a well-planted freshwater tank. Equipped with this nugget, I began planning for a saltwater set up. Not reef to start, but FOWLR with a eye on adding corals later. I continued to read. I visited a couple of all-saltwater B&Ms. I asked questions. I joined a forum called Manhattan Reefs, I watched a dozen or more setup guides on YouTube, I got active on The Official Asylum Reef Tank Thread, and I was even negotiating the purchase and delivery of a brand new 75-gallon reef-ready tank, when I suddenly decided to pull the saltwater E-brake.

Why? :-)

There are a few reasons for this; in brief, what we all already knew, that saltwater is more demanding than fresh, the livestock more expensive, more exacting, the possibility of a tank "crash" more likely with saltwater, and also -- and this is big -- the issue of how to responsibly source tank inhabitants.

You do a few dozen Googles on tropical fish and you're bound to be confronted by the ethical dilemma of where livestock comes from. I've read arguments suggesting that captive-bred (most freshwater fish) doesn't necessarily mean ecologically sound. Likewise, not all wild-caught (most saltwater fish) are caught using reef-blasting explosives or cyanide. Having said that, I feel better about freshwater. I know not all freshwater aquarium fish are farmed, but it's the majority, if you believe what I've been reading. It's difficult to truly know, of course. Which I find troubling. And "troubling" is antithetical to why I want to get into the hobby. Which brings me to my main point, personally speaking, regarding freshwater versus saltwater aquariums...

I think that for a short while I had lost sight of what attracted me to the idea of fishkeeping in the first place, that I find watching aquarium fish relaxing. That's what I hope to achieve with my tank. That's the objective. I want the successful keeping of my tank's inhabitants to be easy enough that care and maintenance don't impinge upon on that objective. I think that'll be easier to do with freshwater. What do you think?
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Dave, I like a thinking man. Given that a tank setup is a big commitment, it's great you've thought it out. I've really never given harvesting practices much thought, but you do have a valid thought process. My biggest drawbacks were the fears you've expressed - increased maintenance, higher investment costs, higher priced inhabitants, and possible sudden failure. I've always been intrigued by the saltwater realm. A lot of them can resemble alien-like worlds and can have tons of unique inhabitants. With that, I'd have to say my favorite part about freshwater tanks is the naturalism they afford. I know I'd have to put forth a lot of effort and probably money to get a salty to function as close as possible to a natural environment. Even then, I don't see it ever being an aquarium that could take of itself. My tanks have been taking care of themselves for years. I change 50% water, wipe down any algae starting to show, clean the power canister filters, and remove any overgrown plants about every 2-3 months. Other than that a little daily feeding and maybe a little water addition to top them off weekly. They truly take care of themselves, finding the larger the tank, the more robust they are. If I want to get slack and put off some duties, I have no worries anything will crash. I can leave for the weekend (or the week) and return knowing everything is as good as it was when I left. If the power goes out for a day or two, everything is just fine. I like the luxury of using water right out of the tap with a little Prime and everyone goes about their business without the slightest inconvenience. Finally, I have the luxury of a nice aquarium downtown if I want to see salties in action.

Dave, try www.aquabid.com for plenty of freshwater variety. Most times you know if they're wild-caught, farmed, or raised by hobbyist.

Good luck on your adventure!
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Jamie, thank you. That's a comfort to know. You've helped me cement it, finally. Going with freshwater. Which brings me to...

Anybody want to help me stock my first freshwater tank? :-)

Having settled on freshwater, I'm on to the planning phase. And I figured I'd ask all you guys for your experienced opinion.

I've heard it said that the best strategy for stocking is to select the fish that you're interested in keeping first, and then build your setup around those and select compatible tankmates.

Again, my main objective for this tank is: peaceful, easy to maintain, planted, colorful, beginner's tank. By easy to maintain I mean hearty fish and perhaps inverts, captive-bred where possible, that won't eat or uproot the aquascape, or one another. I'm thinking of a 55-75g community tank where inhabitants live in relative harmony. I also love weird stuff and vivid color -- which is why I almost went salt. I'm trying to consider the water column as well, and who likes to swim where. So, I've come up with the following shortlist. I welcome all thoughts, criticisms, hints, pointers, everything...


The current shortlist (for after the tank is cycled, of course):

Boesemani rainbows and/or pearl gourami. Twice as many females as males. The thing is, I'm not sure if these two will get along. Anyone know for sure?

Cardinal tetras or neon tetras - shoal of 5-8

Green tiger barbs - shoal of 5 or more. I know these guys are fin nippers so perhaps the gourami are out if these guys are in. I read that they do well with boesemani rainbows.

Dwarf suckermouth catfish - school of 3 or more. I was wanting to get glass catfish because they're a curiosity, but I read that they're terrible for beginners because they require at least 10 to feel comfortable, otherwise they'll never come out of hiding. Anyway, read somewhere that the dwarf suckermouth catfish is "almost mandatory" for a planted tank.

Corydoras of some sort - unless they and the dwarf suckermouth catfish are too similar. Don't wanna be redundant.

Gardneri killifish?

Maybe some type of loaches?

What about inverts? How would some ghost shrimp do? Would they be quick fish food? How about crabs, clams, or snails? I imagine the clams would really screw with the substrate, right?

How am I doing?

Thanks so much, guys. :-)
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Set up a 75 instead of a 55, due to a bigger/better footprint. Here's a stock list for you.....

3 groups of different Apistogramma cichlid species
20-30 Neons or Cardinals
6-10 Cories (Sterbai cories are great)
a single pearl gourami would probably do well with these fish as well as a couple misc plecos. Don't do common or sailfin plecos as they get way too big for a 75.

This list has a lot of substitutes as well. Different small cichlids for the apistos, different characins or cyprinids instead of neons, smaller loaches instead of cories, etc.

Pool filter sand makes a great substrate if you want to save money and is great for cories and loaches. There are many easy to keep plants that would be great for your setup. One of my favs is the java fern. Pretty easy to keep.

Couple more links for you:
Plantedtank.net (lots of info on plants)
tangledupincichlids.com (one of the best vendors out there)
wetspottropicalfish.com (another great vendor with an amazing selection)
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You could also do some slightly larger cichlids such as Thorichthys aureus, but you would want some more robust tetras like diamond tetras or bleeding heart tetras.

You may also consider Orange spotted or blue spotted sunfish, which are a native species and very colorful. There happen to be some on aquabid right now. They are also peaceful enough for a community tank and you could keep them at lower temps that loaches and cories will enjoy. Cooler temps (68-76) would also suit many barbs as opposed to tetras.

There are many, many choices out there to suit pretty much anybody. Browsing tangled up in cichlids and wet spot's stock lists will give you some eye candy to look at. Any questions you have, just post 'em up and I'll try to steer you in the right direction. I'm a certified fish nerd lol.
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Ray, I appreciate your help. Thanks for chiming in.

You know, I had been looking at Apistogramma cichlids -- well, cichlids in general -- before I'd done any reading on them simply because they're beautiful and quite colorful. But I quickly dismissed them as candidates for my 'Beginner's Tranquil Community Tank' because according to, say, LiveAquaria.com, Apistos are not only semi-agressive, but also difficult to care for.

And Wikipedia says, 'Apistogramma species are very sensitive to changes in water chemistry. Apistogramma are best kept in species-only tanks... Although popular, Apistogramma species are not recommended for inexperienced cichlid hobbyists.' Sheesh. So, while Apistos are beautiful fish, I'm reluctant to build a community tank around these guys on my first foray into fishkeeping. Know what I mean?

I assembled the rough-draft stock list I posted using LiveAquaria's compatibility chart as a reference. The chart is not super easy to read, and I guess one has to take these charts with a grain of salt anyway, but New World Cichlids are listed as either "caution required" or "not compatible" with everything besides plecos. Would you disagree with the "difficult" rap Apistos get, Ray? Are you not a big fan of the other stuff on my shortlist, or is it just that you're a big fan of cichlids?

Thanks again for taking the time. :-)
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