Nice on the pushups Dave :-) You make me want to try and see how many I can do at one time.

Confirmed that my should sucks still. I can be so hard headed sometimes. Started warming up on some lat pulldowns and could feel the pain starting. Figured it's only a 3/10 on the pain scale we're good. Jack up the weight. 6/10 is uncomfortable but no pain no gain. More weight on. I started to pull on the bar and decided not a good idea. Saved myself some agony. I'm going to try not to aggrivate it for a week.

I like grilled chicken, pork or steak :-) Sometimes I'll mix it up with some fish :-)

Hope the time off heals you up, Christos.

Same as Tom Christos. Heal up get better. Take care of it, dont let it sideline you forever.

High Carb day today and I'm loving it LOL!!!

Hit 90 push-ups this morning... just barely.

Been using the freeweights a bit. Need to start some cardio.

Definitely rest it. I have permanent shoulder issues from being stupid, not worth the risk of surgery to me so now I deal with it. Take the time let it heal the weights will always be there.

90 Dave? Awesome! :-)

Care to explain this a little further? I think I'm missing your point.

The issue is my shoulder only hurts when moving in certain directions. I can row no problem but pressing movements kill it. So no pressing for the time being. Anything that aggrivates it I'll just stop. Unfortanetly hockey season isn't very kind to my shoulder issue :-)

I surely didn't mean this to sound as douchey as it did. My diet is solid - Very low fat, good (but not many) carbs, and I'm eating tons of clean protein, around 200-250 grams daily. Mainly from egg whites, tuna, chicken, skim milk, and some odd steaks and salmon once in a while. Currently using a whey protein supplement, creatine, and a good MV. I'm putting in plenty of hard work on both lifting and cardio and making good progress at exchanging fat for muscle, but I wouldn't mind another supp. in there that made the hard work pay off a little better. Thanks for any advice you all have.

Patrick no worries, you didn't sound "douchey". Now onto a long ass post. Your original post...
This will be in regards to supplements. Diet is a whole conversation in itself.
You are already taking the few if any (creatine) that is backed some some sort of science. Taking BCAA may help. They have been proven useful. Beta- Alanine which is still under researched have been proven to help. Leucine is good for food uptake also. So, in a nutshell Amino Acids are good.
Some guys take a NO Supplement ( Nitric Oxide ) which is just the amino acid Arginine-alpha-keto-glutarate, or usually a cheaper and crappier form. Most of these "formulas" are loaded with stimulants and high doses of them so you get that "rush etc" there is some promising research in regards to NO products. Do a little research http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/no2.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide.

You said you wanted to take some supplements to "get real gains". There are really 4 routes to take here. Supplements. Pro-Hormones. Herbal. Steroids.

-You can take what I would consider "magazine supplements" you know the **** that increases your bench and gives you 10lbs in a month etc. All of this is junk. Non of it is backed by science, a lot of it is just crap combined with more crap, with a EXTREMELY small amount of the **** that actually works. No serious side effects here , but you wont get any because they arent really doing anything besides getting you bloated with crap.
--Withing this category there are also fat loss supplements. These are all just junk full of stimulants again...Also many of these contain diuretics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diuretic) these are no good. These supplements are junk junk and more junk.

What you have to be careful of now, is many companies pull bullshit on the label and put everything in a "formula" so many ingredients get downplayed. I.E. you may but supplement X because it has Y which is supposed to be good. But in the formula they say it's contained in the "blend or formula" but there's really on 5mcg of it...

Next we have herbal supplements. Some people think these work, some do not. Don't waste your money. Period. There is little or no science / studies backing the majority of it. Post about herbal test boosters http://www.cigarasylum.com/vb/showpo...postcount=4147.

Next up are pro-hormones. Junk again. They are nothing more than steroids that have been manipulated in a lab somewhere, to avoid being banned by the FDA or other government agency. They get altered to the point where they become more harm than good. Also, many hormones give the body false signals and create unbalanced swings in testosterone produced if any. Pro-hormones say they help your body produce more testosterone, which doesn't work well. If work at all. Which cause more minor side effects than taking the real thing usually due to the uncontrollable swings in test, free test etc.

Finally steroids. These work. There are side effects. There is not much research in regards to these in practical Gym applications. There is a lot of hear say and media propaganda on them and how "terrible" they are. Bottom line is this, for what you would pay for the crap that is supposed to work like steroids do, you could just buy the damn real thing. It's illegal and a lot of people take them.


So I guess to sum everything up. You were looking for something to take to get gains but would not give you side effects. Anything that you take from the groups has it related side effects. The only way to have no side effects would be to train 100% natural. No drugs. Some side effects are worse than others. But the bottom line here is this. If you have a sound diet, and are training your balls. Then the choice is yours. But the best bang for your dollar will be the real thing. Hope this helps. I don't want to talk about the illegal side too much on the board here, with respect to the community and moderators. If you would like anymore info, please feel free to PM ME.

I agree with you on the majority of them, Frank, but I have had a couple over the years that definitely worked for me. I had my times with steroids 25 years ago, but obviously am not in a position to posess or use them now even if I wanted to, but I do know their effects. Finding that diamond in the rough pro-hormone (SUS 500 most recently) once in a while is great...although as soon as me and my gym mates figure out it works, the FDA bans it. That is why I jumped on a bunch of it before they banned it.

I hear you on this Tom. I understand a lot of people want to use them because they are "legal" but like I said, you would be more than better off taking the real crap. The way pro-hormones work is terrible at best. It's not precise and is often not constant. More often than not if they do work the levels of test range and vary greatly, causing a host of issues. Not to mention there are no pro-hormones that I know of that are a 17aa compound. ( altered to endure the first pass through your liver without being destroyed ) which without doing makes any oral worthless in regards to hormones.

I respect both your knowledge and experience, Brother Frank. I know the real stuff would be 10X more effective and efficient, but I am not in a position to take it because of my job...and I am not sure I would even if I had a different job.

After 25 years of trying countless legal supps, what I do know is what works for me....and the SUS 500 definitely both increases my strength and tightens up my tendon and joint maladies. But you may be absolutely right that the levels are all over the place, but at my age, it's great to have an edge that sure seems to be more than just psychological. :-)

Wow, thanks for the awesome post. Really informative. At 35 I'm finding the gains I used to get at age 20 much harder to come by. I'm not in any rush and things are going well, I just want to get max results from my work, like anyone else would. Again, thanks a ton guys!

I am glad you are not confused, Patrick, as I think Frank and I have had different results at times. :-)

Yeah I'm good to go, just been away from all this for a while and learning what is working well these days. Great leg workout today - still wobbly as hell going up and down stairs. :-)

4 sets smith machine squats
3 sets leg presses
3 supersets of leg curl, extension, and calf raises. Last one was intense.

Followed by a long stretching routine...

:-)...Indeed. I have tried pro-hormones and herbal test boosters in the past. I understand the work thing. I used to be in the same field as you brother. I'm all for using stuff that works for someone. But my past experiences have led me to feel I have wasted more money and time using things that give me slightly what the real thing would have.

I'm slow, forgive me :-). But the best way to see gains is good nutrition, diet and work your azz off, correct?

You forgot "take your vitamins" and "say your prayers, brother"!


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