I am all for discussion, but I was referring more to the definition of terms. One person's complex may be anothers dynamic, while yet another sees it as full flavor or muddled.

To me what makes a great cigar, is price and flavor. Since we all purchase our cigars (and this is not a hypothetical) price plays a part for me. If the cigar is great but is expensive, I can't buy as many, so IMO the flavor was great but the cigar might not be because I can't go out and buy a lot of them. I mean a Ferrari Enzo is a great car, but I can't afford it, so to me it's not that great.

Flavor in the end is what it's all about. If I don't like the flavor's or flavor I am getting from a cigar it gets pitched. Now as to what those flavors are is the main question. And to each person I think that may be different.
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Price doesn't make it great or not - nor does your ability to attain something make it great or not. The Enzo is still a great car, even if I will never drive one. It is something I may dream about (actually, probably not), but it is still great.

I have smoked one Padron 80th, and probably will never smoke another because I am too doggone tight to spend the amount of coin necessary. Who knows, maybe some event will drive me to do so again. It is and was a great cigar.

Complexity, at least according to my definition of such, may have little or nothing to do with dynamic or exciting or trying to put a term to a flavor I cannot describe (that's simply an unknown flavor). Although I must admit that I may have described things happening in the smoking of a cigar, which I couldn't describe, as complexity (shame on me). Let me see if I can come up with a definition of complexity.

Complexity: the ability of a cigar to change flavors as the cigar progresses, whether confined to flavors present, or the adding of new flavors. This is not to say that the changes are complete, but simply that one flavor may come to the fore for a bit, then fade into the background as another flavor picks up the melody line. Nuances of flavors that ebb and flow, or flavors that may appear and disappear completely.

How is that?

Peace of the Lord be with you.
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I feel I should be more specific, after seeing some of excellent posts here. I said that I like a cigar that remains consistent. That doesn't mean single flavor, necessarily. There are many flavors I enjoy, but if I get more than 3 or 4, I don't find it as relaxing. And, that is often the main reason I'm smoking a cigar.
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I've nothing of value to add to this discussion, which should surprise no one. Yet I can't help but think of the Kipling line: A woman is just a woman, but a good cigar is a smoke.

If we grant he meant to place the cigar in a superior position, and if we (as mostly men upon this board) also grant that women are complex, does is follow that the cigar gains its alleged superiority not only from its unspeaking loyalty but from its consistency and lack of complexity?

No doubt my logic is flawed, as it stems from my fevered brain. :-)
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Ok so I wanted to get my 2 cents worth in here. I think the best cigar I ever smoked was due to its complexity. A cigar I had in my humidor for four years that I had always enjoyed, but not due to the complexity. I bought a box of AF 8-5-8 naturals in 2007 and have always liked their consistency. The last one I smoked blew me away with its complexity and I just wasn't expecting it.

I enjoy consistent good taste all the way through and I find that a lot more often than I find good taste _and_ complexity. I have to agree with Scott on how it looks, how long the ash stays on or what color the ash is. I really don't care about those things at all.

For me a good cigar has a smooth draw, isn't harsh not to be confused with strength and has good taste. That being said...the more taste or notes the better.
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That'd be an original release Padilla Achilles. He tried to get all that were left. If he's nothing, he's passionate about what he likes.

Back to the topic, I find a good cigar: burns well, has a likable flavor, changes a little throughout, and is thoroughly enjoyed with good company. I can smoke a so-so cigar with friends and it takes on a very sweet and enjoyable flavor. What's a steak without a hot baked potato, a fresh salad, some warm bread, and a glass of iced tea?
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For me a good cigar means the burn and draw stays consistant. As for flavors I don't like a huge hit of pepper or spice, I like a smoke with a natural swetness, coffee, dark choc. nuts, and maybe a hint of spice every now and then. I do like some complexity but if I am really enjoying the flavor and it stays that way throughout the smoke then thats ok too. As JJ pointed out in his last post the company makes all the difference.
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If I Have My Choice, I Love Complexity. That's Why We Smoke So Many Different Cigars, Right? :-) As Long As The Flavor Is Good, Though, I'm Happy With A One Dimensional Stick! Great Thread, Scott!:-)
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i can see what both wayne and the rev are saying.

to wayne's point, even if something is great, who cares if you have no access to it? from wayne's point of view it seems like "great" has some degree of attainability to it.

however, to the rev's point, i definitely hear the thing about the Padron 80th. a friend of mine sent me 2 Fuente 75th Birthday cigars a year ago. the Fuentes apparently blend a special cigar every year for Carlito Fuente's birthday. these are cigars that are not necessarily made to be sold at retailers and they are very limited runs that they only send to some of their friends. i saved my 2 for a special occasion and when i smoked one and gave the other to a friend, we both agreed it was the best cigar we've ever smoked. i'll never have one again, because they'll never make another 75th, but it'll still be a great experience and possibly one that no other cigar will beat.

what made it great? an amazing group of flavors that basically remained the same throughout but the draw and burn were impeccable and made for an incredibly smooth smoke. sorry if i'm being redundant here, just thought i'd weigh in on what i thought wayne and the rev were saying.

out of the 2 i had, though, i took the one with an approximate 1.5 inch crack on the wrapper at the foot, i accidentally dropped it while lighting (causing the wrapper at the head to start unravelling) and it was still the greatest ever. maybe that goes to what you were saying, scott.
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Personally ... it is one that you enjoy....
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Excellent answer, my brother. :-)
You used the word "you", and I'm guessing you meant to say "I" there. The only reason I make that distinction is that I want everyone to feel free to always express what they feel, individually, and not make assumptions about what others think is "good", or to let that influence their response.
I've enjoyed cigars that weren't good at all. One of the funnest cigars I ever smoked was a turd that Hal sent me a few years back. It was absolutely awful. I had more fun with that cigar than I've had with hundreds of others, did a review, and everyone had a big laugh over it, myself included. So I don't at all agree with you, as your comment pertains to me. And if you would have enjoyed that cigar and thought it was good, I'd think you're absolutely nuts. :-)
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